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How Have We Never Seen This Before?
How Have We Never Seen This Before?

Season 1, Episode 4 · 1 year ago

Black Swan: “You Got Enough…Cheese?”

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In Episode 4, Isabel and Lauren jump forward in time to discuss a more recent movie, Black Swan, which came out in 2010 and was directed by Darren Aronofsky.

Join us as we talk about how this was not the movie we thought it was, how the internet lied to us, and how the director must think we're completely oblivious to symbolism. 

If you want more from How Have We Never Seen This Before, feel free to subscribe on Apple Podcast and Spotify, and give us a follow on Instagram at @howhaveweneverpodcast!

Also, shout out to Michael Beaumont @monitorcomics for our podcast art! 

Thanks for listening!

Hi Everyone, and welcome to howhave we never seen this before? This is a podcast where two best friendsdiscuss iconic movies that, well, neither of us have ever seen before.I'm Isbell and I'm Lauren and this is how have we never seen this before? Hope you enjoy. The winner of this week's guess the movie contest isone of my good friends, aiden. He really wanted to win and heanswered correctly within probably the first twenty minutes of US posting. So congratulations,aiden, and if you want to be given a shadow at the beginning ofone of our episodes, make sure to follow us on Instagram at how havewe never podcast and check out our instagram story every week. Hi Everyone,and welcome to episode four of how have we never seen this before? Thisweek we watched Black Swan. We picked this one because in last week's episodewe were talking about the back deal test and how we wanted a movie witha strong female weed and women empowerment in general, and, given that weknow nothing about these movies, we picked this one because it passed the test. However, no clownery is the real here. I mean, I guessshe's strong in some ways, but it's definitely not. Well, I wouldn'tsay very women empowering, and there's definitely violence towards women, and unfortunate becausewe picked so poorly. Yeah, I kind of thought going into this thatwe would be discussing a movie about some dancers and the struggles that come withdancing. Yeah, we were so wrong, so wrong. Yeah, like,I knew it was a thriller, and so here's, here's the onething I did know about the movie. There's this text post that goes aroundinstagram. I don't know if you see yeah, okay, so it's atumbling text post and it's nataliportment. Nina is the character's name, and she'sit says she's in this public bathroom with this word written across a mirror andred bopstick. And like the big problem with it that everyone comments on isthat she's in a public bathroom. How would you know that's for her?But then after watching the movie, that texts was completely fake, like she'snot a public bathroom. Yeah, they're also wondering why she's wearing a longsleeveshirt under her hangtop, but that's also explained in the movie. Yeah,I, like whoever commented on that had had no idea what they're talking aboutand I just believed it, which is so fortunate. Moral of the story. Don't believe everything you see on the Internet, pretty much also all thereviews about this movie. But Anyway, let's get into it. So thefirst scene is Natalie Portman on a stage completely the stage is completely black,with like a single spotlight on her. She's in white, in a whiteTutu, and she's also one point there's also a pretty scary devil man withfeathers. And then she wakes up and we realize that this is all adream and it kind of pans around her room and the first thing I noticedwas that there's so many stuffed animals. Yeah, I thought that she wassupposed to be like a teenager or something. Yeah, but I looked it upand she's supposed to be twenty eight. How she supposed to be that old? She also talks like she's very young to her mother, because theyhave that like the relationship is very messed up. But yeah, it's likevery clear that the way her mother treats hers not like a Woman Who's almostthirty. HMM. So after she gets up, she goes out into thiskitchen and her mom gives her breakfast and it's this tiny egg and half agrapefruit and she eats none of it and gets up to leave. So Iwas thinking, like, is there in eating disorder element to this movie?And she does look very, very small the entire movie, but ballerinas arealso very lean, but they also have a lot of muscle. So,yeah, she's so tiny in this whole movie. I read somewhere that atleast melacuonist she lost twenty pounds for this and she normal only weighs like ahundred and twenty pounds. Oh my God. So they both lost so much weightfor this, which is crazy. So after she leaves her apartment,she's on the train and I know she she's looking in the window of thesubway and I was just noticing her scarf.

It looks like feathers, which Ithought was interesting. We're picking up on these things now. I'm reallyreally noticing the movie things, the symbols. Yeah, symbols. Then she looksthrough another window that's like between the two train cars and it's this girlwith a button her hair. She just notices her. She can't see yourface or anything. She's just kind of looking around and then this girl getsoff. I think it's like a stop before her, which is strange whenyou find out who she is later. But she gets off the train andit looks like she's at Juilliard, I think, and she walks in andshe goes into the dressing room and she's sitting there and there's two or threeother girls in the room and they're complaining about how their dance companies broke becauseof their old principal dancer and how they need a new one because she's almostforty. And Mina tries to explain that will this other woman she was dancinguntil her S, but they're like know this, our corpets with dancers likeburned out and yeah, and this is also the first glimpse you kind ofget at the dancers. Name is Beth, so you kind of get a glimpseof Minna's admiration for her. Yeah, she like she wants to be likebest, she wants to be that perfect lead. And then Mela Kunistruns in and it turns out she's the girl from the train. Listen,I love me laconist. I didn't know she was in this movie at firstbecause I literally knew nothing about it. I did know she was in this, but I didn't know what part she played. Okay, and then theyare starting their dance practice for the day and there's probably about like twenty orthirty of them in there and they're all doing purouettes and pleas and things whathave you. And then this man comes in and they all like strip tillless clothes. Yeah, I was confused by that. I was very confusedby that. But now that it's like, now that I've watched it, Ithink maybe it's kind of like his creepy thing. Oh yeah, definitely. And then he starts walking around the dance studio and he's and he goesaround, he taps girls on the shoulder. You don't know if that's good orbad, because he's not doing it like menacingly or anything. But thenhe said as that they are doing Swan Lake, but it's done so manytimes that they need a new version of it and for this they need anew principal dancer. So the people that he tapped, they don't get tobe the Swan or the Swan's twin. So the whites on on the BlackSwan, although like in the actual story. They're different people. They are traditionallyplayed by the same Ballerina and it's really clear that there's going to bea lot of competition between all the girls. And then after practice is over,Nina is standing outside of the principal dancers dressing room and there's a ladythrowing things and I think she just found out that she's fired pretty much.So after she storms out and leaves, Nina goes inside this dressing room andit's clear that she's kind of like dreaming about being that principle dancering and havingthat room ups herself. And then she puts on this woman's lipstick. Watchingthese movies from the perspective of living in a global pandemic, it just sendslike a chill down my spine every time I see something. Yeah, someonedo something gross. It's like we never really cared about gems. And thenshe she just takes a lipstick with her, like that's even more gross. That'sjust creepy. Although I do have a stolen chnel lips and I wasthinking. I was like, who do I know? That's stolen lipstick,and then I realized it was you. Okay, I stole it by accident. Someone stole my eye coat, so the only way to keep warm andSyracuse was to steal someone else's, and it had a Channell lift stick init and I kept it my favorite lipstick to this day. Yeah, okay. But then after she leaves this dressing room, she goes into the practiceroom where this man who had come into the studio earlier tells all the girlswho weren't tapped to go to audition for the lead role. I also noticethat she's the only girl wearing a white everyone else is all wearing black,so it's like, oh, she's gonna get the role. So she doesher dance for the White Swan and after she's finished, this man, hecomes up really, really close to her and whispers in her ear like ifwe were only doing the White Swan, it would be you and Oh,so creepy. I was so grossed out by that. Like after telling everyone, or like having everyone take more like clothes off in the this is notsetting a good tone for him. And then he tells her to do theBlack Swan dance. She starts doing it...

...and then she doesn't complete it becauseand she most falls over because you lacunist who we find out her name islily. She comes in late and it distracts Nina and she's like done,yeah, and he won't let her go again. And then it cuts tothe bathroom and it it just shows her feet and I wasn't sure if maybeshe threw up, putting into the eating disorder thing. It's not clear.Well, it kind of is if you keep watching it, like every timeshe goes into the bathroom stall she's either crying or throwing up. Oh,yeah, I just mean at this this one. For me, it's notlike you can't tell if it's that's why she's in there. I kind ofjust assumed because of the culture around being a ballerina. Yeah, and andfrom everything from before with her mom as well. So then she starts walkinghome. There's a lady walking towards her dressed in all black and as shegets closer and closer it, the face looks like her face, but youonly see it for a second and then she passes and kind of disappears.That's kind of at the start of her it's, I say, like hallucinationsabout herself. And then she gets home. Immediately she goes to practice because shelike she needs it to be perfect than I, because it wasn't perfect. MM. And she gets up and it zooms, zooms in on herfoot while she's spinning and there's like this crack. She thinks their shoe offand her toneail crack. To have it was so gross. That must hurtso bad to have your little but then her mom like helps her up likebandages it and she puts her in bed and she puts a music box onand I was like, Oh, she must be she must be like reallyyoung. She's flaming with her mom, the way her room is now,like knowing that she's twenty eight. It's just verifies everything that I was tellingweird it was. Yeah, it's off putting. Almost the other whole relationshipis very toxic. So then she wakes up and gets on the train againand she puts on that girl's lipstick again. No, just not right. Andshe gets to the dance studio. She goes into the boss's Office toMoss and she tells him that she practiced the dance and I remember this alot and I hate that I wrote this book. Like he caresses her face, which is what he does so many times, like caresses her face andthen says he already shows someone else, Victoria, right, the really meangirl. Yeah, this this one other girl who is complaining about Beth,the other principal answer earlier and also the main competition for this role. Andshe says, okay, I understand, I just wanted to tell you that. And he goes open the door and then slams it shut and is like, why didn't you try to change my mind? Wait, this whole situationreminds me of when we are discussing rocky, when he blocks her from leaving hishouse. Yeah, remind me of that. It's so uncomfortable, likewhy do you think that that's sexy? Do you know it's really hot?Couldn't sent letting a girl leave when she wants to, maybe even opening thedoor for someone, not slamming it shut face? Yeah, unfortunate, badchoice. Shouldn't picked this movie anyway. We should not. He says thatwhen he looks at her, all he sees is a White Swan, likeyou gotta let loose. You could be the Black Swan. And he saysthat he's never seen her lose herself and she's so sessed with perfection. Andbut perfection isn't just about control, it's also about being able to let go. And then he just straight up kisses her. Yeah, that's a salt. Yeah, it's like that's my God. But and then she bites him andlike yes, bite him, get him away from you, but he'slike happy about it. Yeah, it's almost like he was expecting that typeof reaction for her and wanted that to happen. Yeah, discussing, andthen she's really upset. She's been crying because now she's like, I'm there'sno I'm going to get this, like I bit him. And then anothergirl comes up and says that the list, first one lake, has been postedand she says congratulations to Victoria because she just assumed she's got it beforeshe even sees the list. And then Victoria goes to look and like yellsat her, like why would you say that, as like some kind ofstick joke, because Nina actually got the role. Hmm, but everyone elseis congratulating her, which I don't know, I didn't expect. Everyone seems socutthroat. I didn't know if I would. Yeah, I didn't expectthat either, because she has no friends. Yeah, she has. Think peoplewould even like say anything to her. And then this is the scene.So this is one. As soon as she finds out she got thepart, she goes into the bathroom to call her mom and she tells hershe got the part. And then as soon as she comes out of thestall, she looks at the mirror and...

...it's I think it's the same redlipstick that she's sot like. I'm assuming it's not real when she's imagining thisat this point where she wrote it herself or something. Yeah, I thinkshe is either imagining it or she did herself. And it says horror onthe mirror. I don't know why I think that's so funny. At leastfor me, it's because I was so completely wrong about what I thought thismovie was. Yeah, I don't know, I just don't think I'm offended byif someone said that to me, I don't think I'd be offended.Yeah, because you could say so many worse things these days. That's definitelytrue. I don't know, maybe I'm just messed up. Now she's home. is you see this room with all these paintings of her? She's justcreepy in itself, and the creepiest one that eyes definitely moved. So thenshe goes to the bathroom and she takes a shower and I she gets outof the bathroom, you see these scratches on her back and she's bleeding,but you hear her mom come home and is soon as she hears her momcome home she tries to cover it up and just get rid of all theblood and she comes out and her mom has this giant cake for her becauseshe's so proud of her that she got this lead role. And her momstarts to cut a really big piece of the cake and she hells her Oh, don't, don't cut it so big, and then her mom gets so madand she goes to toss entire cake in the in the trash. Ijust thought that was so weird because it's pretty typical when someone's cutting you apiece of cake, you always have to go no, no, no,just a sliver, just the slim like obviously Nina does have like some sortof eating disorder, but at the same time, like I don't think it'stoo obscene for her to ask for smaller piece. Yeah, and I thinkalso that it's possible her mom is bipolar, like has some mental illness. Itjust doesn't. I really wish that in this movie it would show likesome sort of process of someone getting help, because the mom needs help. Themom knows her daughter has a problem, yeah, but still won't get herhelp. I think it's also difficult, though, because her mom was adancer as well and was told to probably be smaller or kept pushing herselfso hard that it just built up and she might not think it's a problemanymore, hmm, or that something that can't be helped. True, butthen also, you see throughout the movie, I guess she kind of tells Ninathat she's working too hard, like wants her to take breaks when she'snot feeling right, but at the same time as she telling her not justbeend so much time so she can be with her. That's a good point. Yeah, I don't know, there's a lot to unpack. Yeah,so after she throws away the cake and everything, it jumps back to anotherdance practice and it's definitely clear that it's the White Swan dance. But atthis point to moss is talking to her about how she should become the eviltwin and is like, he says, get ready to give me some ofthat bite like no, do not bring up the time you sexually assaulted her. I think it was just so gross because it kind of like asserts hisdominance over her even more, the fact that he can just openly refer tothe time that he assaulted her. It was not not ideal, know.And then after he says this, it shows Nina going to watch the normalpractice where all the other ballerinas are practicing. It's a moss comes in and sayswe'll look at Lily. She's imprecise, but she's not faking being in precise. That's just who she is. But at the same time I wasalso thinking, isn't the whole point a ballet to be precise? Like,yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Aren't you supposed to be perfect asa ballerina? But maybe it's this whole Contemporary Swan Lake version that you'renot supposed to be? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. AndLily's also from California, so it's like a different lifestyle from vibe.Yeah, really, pass the vibe check Nina's it's not. No, no, after the dance practice we are at a party. Tom is leading Ninathrough a crowd and then it is taking her upstairs to make a toast,but also I was worried he was going to take her all the way upthe stairs and attack her or something, just because that's the vibe I wasgetting from him. He also does not in fact pass the VIBE test,not at all. Oh my God. So he makes a toast and whilehe's doing that, Nina's looking down at her finger and she's picking at itand it starts to bleed, and Tom says that the old principal dancer isretiring at the end of the season. It's also important to note that hecalls Beth, the old principle dancer, little princess, as that comes uplater, and then he also presents Nina...

...to the crowd as the new principaldancer, and Lily laughs pretty loudly and I can be heard throughout the wholeParty. And after that that toast, Nina goes to the bathroom to washyour hands, to stop her fingers from bleeding. As someone who compulsively takesout their fingers, I realize that this is a problem that maybe I shouldfix, because I see what it looks like now from an outsider's perspective.But it's not as bad as this point where she like tries to pull theskin and then it peels back half of her finger and then someone knocks onthe bathroom door and then she like blinks and it's gone and her finger wasn'tbleeding at all. And it's Lily who comes into the bathroom and introduces herself. Also takes off her underwear, I don't know, and she asked meto stay in the bathroom just so like talk, but he's like I haveto leave. Okay. This is where I don't like Nina. She putsup with everybody's crap except for Lily. Lily's trying to be your friend andshe's so mean to her and so nice to everyone else, even though theyall walk over her, and it's like up and like. At this pointI didn't really feel like lily was trying to take her spot or anything.She wasn't as competitive as everyone else at that point. But also, Lily'sher supposed blood sister. She like says that later. Yeah, they're they'reblood sisters because they're in the same troupe, and I don't know if she everwas trying to take her part. I don't know if that's like theparanoia that Nina had, if everything was in her head or not. Yeah, well, I'd honestly, I don't. I don't know that she was because, like, she does talk to Tomm but it's not like, Idon't know, it never seemed that malicious. Like it seems malicious from Nina's pointof view, but it I don't know, it doesn't seem that bad. HMM, exactly. We'll get into it, though. so as Ninaleas the bathroom, Toma is right outside and he's leading her out of theParty and is like, Oh, you should stop at my house for drinksbefore you go home. That when I was like, is she old enoughfor that? Turns out she is, and she's looking at this statue ofa man without arms but with wings, which is a symbol for later,which I now realize. Yep, why you're doing such a good job.I'm really analyzing the movies, though. I'm so proud of you. Imean, the last two have made us think a bit more, I feel. Yeah, I feel like this one the symbols aren't as subtle. Perhaps, HMM, I don't know. But are she standing at this statue?She goes to like turn around and bath throws behind her. Beth says,Oh, you must have done something to make him pick you, and hesays we don't all have to do that, which is oh, yeah, that'sa little rude. Well, she imagine if someone drunkenly came up toyou and asked if you performed sexual favors to get your job. Like that'sbasically what she said to her, I know, but she's implying that.She's implying both them flying, that they folks left with him. It's justlike, don't do that. Build each other up, don't tear each otherdown. I know. What about the women empowerment that we are looking forthis week? Did Not find it at all. Not I have yet tosee a woman become empowered. She goes to this man's house and he saysto her there shouldn't be any boundaries between them. That's a red flag.That's a huge redful, like and there should be boundaries between you and yourchoreographer. Yeah, and like the questions he asks. He asks is she'shad a boyfriend, asks how many, and then asks she's a virgin,and then he's when she says no, he's like, Oh, then there'snothing to be embarrassed about. That's something to be embarrassed about in the firstplace. Yeah, I just I hate him. He sucks. He's awful. Oh, and then he's like, okay, I'm going to bed,you can leave. She was only there for like five minutes. Yep,that was it. And then she goes home and her mom's like, Oh, you were you were out late, and she asked her about asks herabout these earrings she's wearing and they're important later and they're also important now,but I didn't realize it till later, so I want to talk about itlater. But Nina's like, oh no, I don't worry, mom, they'refake. And then I felt uncomfortable because her mother insisted on taking herdress off for her, and then she sees these scratches on her back.Nina tries to play it off as like a rash or something, and hermother forced her to cuttle her nails off, because she explains that this is somethingthat they did compulsively before. And then she takes a scissor and cutsoff all our nails. Also, how...

...come they don't own a pair ofNail Flippers? Yeah, I feel like cutting them with scissors is just goingto make them more jagged, and they don't file them like that's going tomake it worse. But then she makes up the next morning. Oh,we forgot about this. So basically, the previous night at Tom's house,he informs her that she needs to touch herself by the next rehearsal. Andso she wakes up the next morning and, you know, starts really getting intoit. All the stuffed animals are watching, but also and her mom'swatching. Well, I don't know if she's watching. She's asleep. Butyou why is your mom asleep in a chair in her room? In thefirst one, I I could not tell you. I guess the what.Also, why wouldn't you? How do you not notice your mom just sittingthere? Yeah, not hot. Did Not pass the fine check. Andthen after that unfortunate encounter, she goes backstance practice and they find out thatBeth is in the hospital, and I kind of thought that tomat did somethingthe same. Once again, we expected something more sinister than what happened.So basically, he explains to Nina that she, like after the party best, just walk into the street and got hit by a car and he thinksthat she did it on purpose. And then he goes to caress hiss face, but he takes both his hands and his hands are bigger than her entireface. Every time he even came close to her. I wanted to screamand grow up at the same time. It was awful. And then Ninagoes to visit Beth in the hospital and she leaves her flowers and then shethen she decides to like lift up the sheet. Why? Someone is ina coma and it's probably your fault and you just go to the hospital andlook under her gown what like? That's why would you do? Like what? And she don't understand and she sees these scars and she freaks out andthen backs into a nurse and like runs away. But like, why wouldyou do that? I don't know. I guess maybe. I don't know. I think maybe she did it just to see her future. Yeah,and like look at someone who is kind of succumb to the pressures of beingthe principal dancer under Tom's direction. HMM. Well, after that, she shegoes to the principal dancers dressing room, which is now all hers. Somaybe it is kind of like solidifying that Beth is gone, but shelays out several things. It moves really fast and it was kind of hardto tell what each of the things were, but there was a nail file andthen a lipstick and then there were like three other things, which wekind of see them more clearly later. But after this point she goes homeand she's he's here taking out the trash and she sees this other trash whichis like a a wooden beam, and then she takes the beam and triesto barricade her door so that she can't her mother wouldn't be able to openit very far, and it works, but she her mother starts coming,so she hides under her bed. Yeah, it's just interesting because why isn't therea lock on the bathroom door? Why isn't there a lock in herroom? It kind of shows the control that she has, the mom hasover her daughter, her twenty eight year old, grown adult daughter. Andthen she goes to another dance practice and Toma tells her to let loose again, and then Tomas not happy and then he asks the mail dancer if hewould sleep with Nina and he's like no, but like why did you ask thatthat's and then he goes on to say that no one would have sexwith her. Yeah, but then the lights go out and Tom I waslike you're just frigid, like and then the lights come back on and hesays everyone can go, but she has to stay. Red Flag, redflag, and then the mail dancers like have fun youtube and he starts aToma, stops, starts dancing with her to help her practice, and helike feels her up and tells her to respond to his touch and then hekisses her and he's like open your mouth, and it's like this isn't teaching,this is this is this is a salt. UN To stop. II'm like home alone right now and I had to like stop because I wassaying out loud it you by myself. The only time she kind of danceswith passion is when she's trying to get away from him, if you noticedthat. And then after that he kind...

...of just like leaves and she's stillthere hours later. Yeah, and she kind of pleads for him to comeback. She's, I guess, Stockholm Syndrome or something. Yeah, kindof, or maybe it's because he's the only guy that's ever really shown affectiontowards her because she's under her mom's thumb so much that she hasn't really beenable to date people. MMM. Well, she did tell him she had afew boyfriends, nothing serious. But after that she's still dancing and thenare so practicing, and so someone standing in the doorway and it kind oflooks like Nina, but it turns out it's Lily, and lily they justare talking while he's like Oh, you're hot for teacher. Like no,he's sexually assaulting her. Yeah, and she's like still defending him, whileLily's saying that he's disgusting, and Nina is so mean to lily at thispoint too. But I guess it's kind of just defined. Lily should nothave said that, but I think lily saying that she should stay away fromthat. Nina should stay away from Toma because he's creep and she's defending himand then says something mean to lily. HMM, okay, I wrote thatshe doesn't have any friends because when people try to like look out for her, she kind of brushes them aside. Well, I feel like her mom'skind of taught her to cut people off and only depend on her hmm.And I also think that Nina's kind of hesitant because she's worried that Lily's gonnasteal her spot. It's kind of at the back of her mind. HMM. Yeah. So then she's in the bathtub at home and she goes underthe water and opens her eyes and it it looks like there's someone on topof her. I don't know, I kind of thought might have been itlike look like her mom, but then again it also might have just beenanother version of herself. Yeah, I think it was the version of herselfthat she's been seeing. But then there's blood and you can see that there'sa scratch on her back again and she can goes to cut her bring hernails and she like she's looking in the mirror and there's a this like evillook, like it like switches for a second and then she like cuts herfinger with the scissors. One thing that I really appreciated about kind of thecinematography was that the mirrors kind of showed the two sides of Nina. Yeah, like the White Swan in the Black Swan that is kind of inside her. HMM. Yeah, there's a lot with like reflections and mirrors and mwhat's real and what's not. But then she goes back to a dance rehearsaland this is where it's just her in the mail lead and Toma tells themto go again and again, and he just he doesn't give her any direction. So she stops halfway through one of the Times. It was like,can you tell me what I'm doing wrong? And he says no, like Lilytold me, you needed me to be easy on you because you're you'rejust stressing out too much. And then he tells her to stop being weak. He calls her a coward. Yeah, she needs to stand up to people, but this is not the way to so many problems. And thenshe goes to find Lilli because she found out that he's that she's the reasonthat he's not giving her direction, helping her. And I feel like Lilydidn't do it to be malicious, like, yeah, I don't think she didit to be to steal her spot. I think that's all in Nina's head. That's the paranoia and she can't like understand that she's trying to bea friend to her because she doesn't have any. Yeah, she's on thetrain going home and she's filing her nails obsessively and there's this old man likelicking his lips at her and making obscene gestures. Hm. But after thisencounter, she gets home and the mom asks if the director is taking advantageof her, and she says no, and the her mom says, Idon't need to make the same mistakes that I did in my career and thelike goes back to just like what career list and she deserved it. Yeah, and then the mom asks about her skin and her scratching at it andshe tells her to take her shirt off. And but I think this is thefirst time that Nina's really said no and put force behind it and reallymeant it, which I was good. And then someone comes to the doorand her mother gets it and then like shoves the door and it was lily, and Lily says she came to apologize about telling to mom about what lookwhat Nina had said to her. HMM. Then us take her out dinner.Nina says no, but then says how about drinks, right when hermom comes out to like tell her to come inside, and then she's likeno, I'm gonna leave. At this...

...point, when they get to therestaurant, lily and Nina are talking about how tomm would call Beth his littleprincess, and Lily was like, Oh, maybe he'll call you that, Ii. She was like no, don't be silly, he wouldn't he. That's something like he's not. He just calls Beth best. I think, deep down, though, she was kind of hoping that. And thenlily gives Nina a tank top. It's a black tank top. But thenlily tells me to that she needs to relax and is like, Oh,you should try this drug. I thought that she was going to give herlike Xan x or something like yeah, take the ZANNEX, it'll probably callme down. But no, it was not zanning. It was is molly, and it's like Oh, it'll, it'll relax you wot to loosen youup for really just a few hours. She goes to the bathroom, changedinto the tank top and there's a call from her mom and she ignores it. Also like why, why does her mom think it's appropriate to call her? Like she's a twenty eight year old woman, she can go out withwhoever she wants, she can stay out however late she wants. It's herlife. Yeah, if it were a normal relationship and your mom just calling, you be different, but it's like yeah, my mom called me,I'd be concerned, not like this woman calling me. But as she goesup the stairs from the bathroom, she sees Ar Nina, sees lially dumpingthe contents of the pill into the drink and then she doesn't care, justdrinks it anyway. HMM. And then lily introduces them to two men.One of them Sebastian stand I was wondering why he looks so familiar. Yeah, another important part that I noticed about this was that she introduced herself andsaid that she was a dancer before she said her name, like that's theonly identity that she has, not even her own name. She also,at this point she starts laughing and you can tell that the drugs are reallystarting to kick in. And then they go to dance and it's like strobelights when it flashes between her being happy and dancing, and then she's likevery depressed and lonely. And then there's also a flash where she has thisthe really dark makeup on and then she's in the bathroom with some random guyand she then she when she realizes where she is, because she didn't understandwhat happening. At that point, she walks out of the club and lilycatches up to her and they get into a cab and well, they're inthe cab going home and then lily tries to touch her and, you know, pushes her hand away, and then they end up back at Nina's apartmentand they try to be quiet but they're laughing and her mom comes out andlike is asking a where she's been, what she's been doing. The MOMtries to pull nita into her own bedroom and then she slaps her, andthen lily and Nina run to Nina's bedroom and barricade the door with that postthat she had found earlier, and she tries, the mom tries to getinside, but eventually she just stops. And at that point they start makingout. And then, Yep, and then Natalie Porman has sex with me, La Kunis. That's also on her song, but I'll save herself.At the same time, interesting and no, there's an even look on Lily's facefor a second, but that face turns out to be like morphing intoNina's face and lily has this tettoo on her back and that also starts tomorph into wings, like the Black Swan Wings. See, it's not verysubtle. No. And then so when she wakes up, she realizes she'slate and she's like she's looking around for Lily. Lily's not there. Eventuallyshe makes to the dance and she sees lily doing her dance, and somom tells her to go get warmed up. He's not mad, which I waskind of surprised about. I don't know, like this is their dressrehearsal for your big performance and he I don't know, it seems may'd beupset. Maybe he just he's happy that she's not perfect. Yeah, butthen as soon as all he's done, she dancing. She comes over toNina and Nina says, why do you wake me up? She's like,what do you mean? I didn't stay over at your house. She's explainingthat like none of that was real. I think this is the first timeshe'd kind of like really recognizes is that it's a hallucination. She starts thinkingthat like maybe something's going on there. Now it's NATAS turned to dance andshe just keeps watching to Mouston Lily while she's dancing and after this practice shegoes to the bathroom and is trying to throw up. She can't, butyeah, so after after that, it's like, I think this is abig turning point for her, because she sets out her music box to fallasleep because her mom is no longer doing that for her, and then shejust smashes it to the floor. And then she also grabs all the stuffedanimals in her room and she goes and throws him in the trash. Thatbroke my heart, let me tell you. Yeah, they did not deserve whathappened to them, honestly, like, if you're going to get rid ofthem, donate them. But I get it. It's more dramatic tofor them to trash. But then she's there practicing for the Final Act,which is where the White Swan jumps to her death, and she's scared tojump because it's just her, like there's just a mattress on the ground,and she jumps and lands in the mattress. But then it's her fitting for thecostume and the ASS costume director says...

...she lost weight. She also lostto take her shrug off for the first time, revealing her back and butwow, after she does that, she's looking in the mirror and then itlooks like she's scratching her back, but she isn't, like you can seeyour hands or down, and then her reflection turns around and and after thatpoint she finds out that lily has become her alternate and she freaks out andsays it can be anyone, but it can't be because she's obsessed with thisidea that lily's trying to take her place. And at that point she's practicing byherself, like it's late at night. She's the only one up in thisroom and except for the pianist, who's like, dude, I gotabout, I have a lie, have a life. And at that point, like her, she's looking in the mirror again and her reflection is movingslower than her and like turns around and it's very creepy. And then allthe lights go out and she goes to see what it is and she seesa shadow which I'm assuming it is probably her. You couldn't really see whatit was, but she's welcome towards the main stage and then she sees andthen she sees lily in two months having sex and then lily morphs into Ninaand to Moss morphs into the creepy demon guy from the very first scene.This is kind of the point where I assumed that the whole movie kind ofshows her descent into schizophrenia. Yeah, that's what I was thinking, andat first I really thought she was an unlikable character who just refused to gethelp. But then I realized that it's not that. It's not her faultthat she's unlikable in that she won't get help. It's part of her skisfrom at that at that point when she like sees this whocination, she takesoff her earrings and I was like, what's what the earrings like? Thisis something, and this is when I think, like at this next thingjust kind of wear like really made sense to me, and she goes tothe hospital to see Beth and she leaves her note and also the ear rings, lipstick, cigarettes and perfume, and this was the things that she hadlined up on the mirror earlier because she had stolen them all from Beth,and it's kind of like her becoming the principal dancer. That was kind oflike if she had those things she could be perfect like Beth was. Oh, and the nail files also there. And then Beth is like, youstole this stuff from me, and then takes the nail file and stabs herselfin the face, like through her cheek. But she also morphs into Nina andthen she freaks out. Nina freaks out and runs to the elevator andbut she has the the nail file in her hand, like then she goeshome, she's washing her hands, turns the lights off, goes back forsome reason and Beth is standing there and then goes and throws up in thebathroom. And then, if she comes out of the bathroom, she seesall the pictures that her mom is painted of her and they're talking and screamingat her, and then she rips them all off. And then she seesBeth at the door those she thinks she she's best standing in the doorway,but then it's her mom and then, oh, and then the feather things. Yeah, and then she she runs to her room and barricades it andthen it sounds like her back is breaking, but it's actually like feathers growing fromher back that she pulls it out. I couldn't watch. That was gross. I had to look away. And then her eyes, like thewhites of her eyes were all read, and her mom trying to break intothe room, but she goes and slams the door on her hand, breaksher hand. But even then, after that, her mom's out of theroom, she's not coming in, and then her knees been backwards and shecollapses to the floor. There's so much happening in these like two minutes.I know it was a lot to like take none of. And then shewakes up. It's the next morning and she has socks on her hands.HMM, and her music box only has one leg. Oh, another thingthat this is when I like finally confirmed put two and two together. Itshould have probably happened a while ago, but I was certain that the BlackSwan is her mental illness. Oh yeah, which like like I inferred from maybelike halfway through, but it's kind of confirmed. Yeah, her BlackSwan is like her I'm doing, while she's like her actual self, isthe Timid White Swan. And Yeah, so when she wakes up she's suchhas to go because it's the day of the show and her mom's like no, I called and I told them you're sick. And then her doorknob iscompletely missing, but then her mom's actually sitting on the doorknob and Nina goesand crushes her mom's already broken hand to get the DOORKNOB and the leaves sothat she's at the dance and lily is...

...asking her like what are you doinghere? You're supposed to be sick, and the way she says that itseems like she's upset, but I don't know if that's just Nina like thinkingthat's how she's saying it, or if that's how she actually sounded. ButTom says like Oh, don't worryity has the lily to do it, andshe asking like did you announce it to the audience yet, and he hasn't, and she's like well then I'm doing it, and she starts to getready into the White Swan makeup and he tells her that the only person standingin her way is herself, which, now that I'm reading that makes alot of sense. I wrote that down too. But also she like goesto get ready in her toes on her right foot are stuck together, butthen her left foot is like webbed. It was the nasty got swan feet. And then she goes for her first position for the dance and but thengoes on stage and from what I could tell, it look like that firstdance goes well and she's herself, like she's still in control. Actually comesoff this stage, she sees Tomm he like gives her look and she thinksthat means like lose myself, because like the black swan dances coming up.But then she looks across and she sees Lily in the mainmail dancer Kissing,and like she touches him, and then it probably didn't really happen, butit's just a Nina. Yeah, and then she also thinks she's seeing allthe other dancers. They're like dancing in a circle and it looks like herher face is like their faces like morph into her face. And as shegoes on again, she's being spun around by the that mainmail dancer that waskind of kissing lily earlier, and all this their faces morph again, andthen the main mail dancer drops her. I don't know, I thought herknee was gonna like shatter or something. I couldn't tell if it was completelyhis fault or if it was also her fault because she was so distracted andhe seemed so surprised when he dropped her. I know, I like he waslike how did that happen? But I don't know what she could havedone that would have made him drop her. Yeah, so then she goes tothe dressing room and she sees Lily in the Black Swan outfit and thenlily morphs into Nina and they're fighting and Nina smashes lily onto the mirror andthen lily starts choking her, and then her neck, I guess it becomesa swan neck. I don't know that. I didn't that was weird. Butthen Real Nina, White Swan Nina, takes a part of this mirror that'sjust been smashed and stabs her Black Swan Self, which actually turns outlike looks like lily again, and she's dead. And then she just dragsher into another room and shut the door. Doesn't even never lore, the oneperson that wanted to be friends with her. I know I's like you, you don't think anything of this. There's like you, I got tokeep going, and that's it. And she's now she's in her Black Swanoutfit and her eyes are all red, like the whites for either red,and as she's dancing there's like this whishing noise that sounds like she's flying,and like we see her arms. They're like kind of silvery and like ourfeathers growing. And then her arms become wings and she doesn't have any arms. He only has wings, like the statue from the beginning of the movie. And then the dancings over and her eyes and her arms are back tonormal, like after all this applause, and then she goes off the stage. She like goes straight Toma and just makes out with him. You,Yep, I said you, and he's just like happy and smiling about it. No one is anything. I was just like, Yep, I thinkthey know about Toma's relationship with Beth, so they kind of just assume this. Yeah, so now we found out there's one more act and they're goingto she's going to find lily and there's blood seeping out of the closet fromwhere she hid her, but she like doesn't go in the closet to checkon her anything. She just like take some towels and stuff some at thedoor and then there's a knock on her door. She opens it up andit's a lily at the door congratulating her and she's very confused. I wasconfused. I was like who did she kill? But then there wasn't anyblood, so she was hallucining the whole thing. And it turns out sheactually stabbed herself, did she though? Yeah, that's that's also. Iwas like, but did she really? And then she pulls a glass outof herself, which you're not supposed to do that. Just leave it in. You're better off leaving it in.

Yeah, but she was trying tokill herself anyway. I feel like she didn't matter she pulled it out ornot, to her at least, I don't know. I was thinking likethe Black Swan is like her mental illness controlling her, but then she hasthese moments where she feels like herself and I thought this was that moment.I think she she does have these moments where she's in and out of hallucinations, but they kind of overlap. Yeah, especially as it gets worse and worse, it's definitely harder to tell, all righter to tell by him.And then finally it's at back to the final scene, the final act ofthe show. And there's blood seeping from her costume when you're like zoomed inon her. But then she runs up this mountain where like the Swan's wistjump off, but you see it from an audious point of view and youdon't see any blood, which is why I was thinking, like, didshe actually stab anyone? Is this real? And then she jumps and she windson the cushion and everyone's applauding, everyone's so excited and they go overand they see that there's there's blood, and Jama calls her his little princess, and then she she doesn't care about the blood, like it was perfect, like I was perfect. And then you don't see her die, butthat's that's the end. It just cuts to the credits at that point.HMM, I would have loved for this movie to have ended with her wakingup in the hospital, speaking to a psychiatrist, getting help, but no. What are your thoughts on the movie? I thought so much during this movie, like the entire time I was thinking and like I like that itmade me think, but at the same time it was it was so badfor women. HMM, like not what I wanted. I just I don'tknow, I thought I found movie, but you can't judge a book byits cover or movie. No body, positivity, no, no diversity,no, no empowerment, no women supporting women. NOPE, none of theabove. Okay, I'm conflicted because I did not like this movie, eventhough critics say it's a masterpiece. I like, I appreciated this cinematography.I think that it was shot really well, but also, at the same time, like some of what they were getting at was so in your facethat I felt almost offended that they thought we were that stupid, that weneeded these hints, like when her feet turn webbed or when she physically turnedinto the Swan. Yeah, yeah, I don't know that like they necessarilyneeded those transformations, like especially the feet and the neck. I could Icould understand if maybe, like her back started getting scaly. That would beone thing which happens, which like that was fine, or and then justleave it to the feathers coming from her arms at the end, like herwings. That would have been okay, but everything else it just felt likeway too much. Maybe people want to watch these movies without thinking so analyticallyabout them that they don't want people to have to think about these symbols.I think that's the point, that's the whole point of this movie. So, like a lot of them, I could have done without. But Ialso think, like, yes, the statue was pretty obvious, like,but it was kind of cool, like, but I don't I didn't need allthe other stuff. M None empowering movie, Dude. Are we evergoing to find one that that's empowering that we haven't seen? Will find anempowering movie we haven't seen, because we have seen some, so they doexist. All right, that's all for now. Well, see you nextweek. If you'd like to follow us on social media, our instagram ishow have we never podcast and our facebook is how have we never seen thisbefore? If you watch our instagram stories, each week we have a guest themovie where we give you some clues and first person to guess the moviegets a shout out at the very beginning of the episode. All right,well, that was it from us for this week. We hope you enjoyedand we'll see you next time. Hey, congratulations, you've made it to theend of our podcast. We hope you enjoyed listening. How have wenever seen this before? Is produced by is B barone. The music isby Scott Holmes, the podcast art is by Michael Beaumont over at monitor comics, and our social media is run by Lauren Cola. Thanks for listening.

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